"What concerns me is the fact that this woman thought that her “looking like a boy” was her free pass from being the object of the male gaze and sexual harassment, and that she was desperately trying to figure out what more she can do to pass as a boy."
I can relate to this a lot. I came out two years ago at 28 and wanted to stay away from the male gaze at all times. I disguised wearing baggy clothes as "figuring out my style". I am Brazilian. My body has been sexualized for as long as I can remember. But with therapy and self-reflection I accepted that I can't change men's behavior. I did end up finally figuring out my style based on what I liked, not how much of my curves it covered.
This was beautifully written. Thank you for sharing!
I so agree. Of course she doesn't "look like a boy"! I understand wanting their privilege and less harassment and threats, but they are our oppressors. Lesbians who look like Dykes look wonderful, as she does. What a waste to want to look male. And if she is attracted to other women (which I think is our natural inborn state), then she should not want to look male (or male-identified "feminine.")
Yes! -- "The real problem is male sexual entitlement and violence, which are byproducts of patriarchy.
If we had a culture where men actually respected women, and if we lived in a world where women did not have to fear our boundaries being crossed—I vouch that we would see far fewer women trying to opt-out of womanhood."
And like you said, none of trying to change how we look will make us safer from male harassment and attacks, and it's a shame for women to make men be the guidepost for how they want to look, whether to attract them (which is so dangerous) or to keep them away. What does help is to look firm and focused and strong, dressing in shoes we can easily and safely run in, clothes that protect us, and not looking open and friendly towards men (which can be hard for girls and women to unlearn.) There are so many ways we've been taught to "behave" and look welcoming to men. (Comparing expressions Butches and Fems have is very revealing about the smallest looks and gestures, or lack of.) When I was quite young and going out in public to bars, etc., I actually used to carry a knife in a scabbard on my belt, but there are safer ways to protect ourselves that don't get police involved. Meanwhile, for some of us, the looks and attitude that put off predatory men can be very attractive to other Lesbians.
You're right too that this is a slippery slope into the trans cult, which will not work, but will destroy her natural handsomeness and health, and also means joining with our worst enemies. It's never a good idea.
Hi Bev, thank you for sharing your thoughts. One thing you mentioned that stood out to me is the idea that women can behave or dress in a way that is not inviting to men, and that butch women are exemplary for this model of behavior, as opposed to the average feminine woman.
Personally, I think this is another way of privileging masculine expression over femininity, or judging it as smarter (even street-smarter) when it is not. Both female expressions (masculine and feminine) have their own unique strengths in terms of navigating society.
As far as women modifying their behavior so as to not appear inviting to men, this is not really possible because men often find a woman’s mere existence as an invitation. Women do not have to do anything to be considered inviting, when our bodies are deemed enough of an invitation.
The average man is horrible at reading women’s body language and social cues—and part of that is because they simply do not care about what women are thinking or feeling. They have been socialized out of that level of attunment. Even if you do not smile, they will take it as an invitation to tell you to do so.
I experience street harassment all the time. Men also talk to me all the time.
I enjoy dressing in what makes me feel good, and sometimes, that can be revealing and/or feminine clothing. I have a relaxed, confident demeanor.
But just because I don’t have a masculine or “tough” exterior, does not mean I’m “inviting” men into my space, or that I am not mindful of my safety.
The problem is not me—it’s other people’s perceptions and behaviors. So, it irks me to hear that women like myself are supposed to bend over backwards and to more masculine, change our wardrobe, or behave differently just to be a little safer.
Do you see how this is replicating the very same system I talked about in this essay?
In any case, I don’t believe butch is something women can become. Most women are naturally more feminine. We deserve a world that respects us as we are.
The solution to street harassment is for men to get their shit together and learn how to respect women, not for women to contort ourselves further.
Oh I agree that nothing completely protects us, and also women should never have to change how we are because of men. What I think protects us the most is having a car, seriously. Being less exposed on the street or public transportation helps, but not everyone can. (Where I live, it's almost impossible to go anywhere without a car, like a ten minute drive would take hours by bus and no way to carry groceries, etc..)
I really do not like or identify with saying "masculine" for Butches or women refusing male-identified femininity. Also I would never say we have more privilege considering the ways we are targeted and treated, whether by Lesbian-hating doctors or other Lesbians. I keep thinking that almost all the Butches I've known are dead now. Some murdered and a lot from cancer and other stress-related illnesses. Being Butch also does not mean being or looking tough.
I wasn't replicating what you were talking about since I never say that women should change how they are because of men in any way, but most women do, to appeal to men. I agree that women should not have to change how we look for safety, but some things are practical and women who choose "fashion" and being "attractive" endanger themselves in other ways, like the friend who broke her ankle with high heel shoes and can't walk without a cane now. (And now she's more vulnerable to attack.)
I don't believe or expect males to change for the better because I think male violence is in their nature, across most species. (A few animals cultures have almost eliminated males and are safer, but very few.)
I do agree that Butches are Butch from early childhood and other women can't become Butch. But we were a lot safer when more women (like in the early Seventies) tried to look more like Dykes (though the term "Butch" scared most of the Lesbian Feminists I knew). It also is important for girls to see obvious Lesbians and women refusing male images of us so they know that they don't have to try to be male if they want to look more natural.
Hi Bev, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Yes, I now remember you saying that you don't like the word "masculine" to describe butch women, because of the association with males.
While I totally understand that, I'm also wondering how you define butch if it's not about masculinity?
The the official definition of butch from the dictionary is "a lesbian whose appearance and behavior is seen as traditionally masculine".
Masculinity is defined as "having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men or boys".
While you may have your own personal definition-this is how we linguistically define butch, and it is how butch women are perceived in society, as well as within the lesbian community.
Personally, I don't think this definition is a bad thing. It is a fact that butch women carry qualities that are commonly associated with men or boys.
It is a social and cultural description, rather than a permanent attachment of butch women to males.
Masculinity does not exclusively belong to men, but it is a dominant trait in their group. Women who are *naturally* more masculine-leaning are in the minority, and always will be.
In this way, I do not believe masculinity and femininity are entirely socially fabricated.
If we can't meaningfully describe butch or masculinity in a way that is honest, then we have lost valuable language to claim our experiences.
--
As far as the replicating the same problem I shared in this essay: I pointed out that you listed a number of ways that women can modify their dress and behavior so as to not invite men, and how you suggested that butch women are exemplary models for this, whereas femmes are not:
"What does help is to look firm and focused and strong, dressing in shoes we can easily and safely run in, clothes that protect us, and not looking open and friendly towards men....There are so many ways we've been taught to "behave" and look welcoming to men. (Comparing expressions Butches and Fems have is very revealing about the smallest looks and gestures, or lack of."
So yes, I do think this contradicts your point about women not changing their behavior or dress in an effort to control men's behavior. It's not so much about butch women being privileged in society, but moreso that this statement "privileges (pedestalizes) butch expression as somehow better or street-smarter than that of femmes.
...This is especially because femmes tend to carry a more delicate demeanor, and are more likely to wear dresses and skirts (not sure if this is what you meant by clothing that does not protect us), and shoes with chunky platforms or heels.
Fashion is not always about practicality-it is about Art and Culture. Men have also worn heels and "skirts" throughout history. In many cultures, especially in Africa, women walked around naked or half-naked all the time. So, context really matters here.
On that note, not every woman expresses herself to gain the interest of men, even if it may be perceived that way.
Some women are just naturally very attractive to men, and people will assume that she is dressing or behaving that way for men, when she is not. I have often been accused of this, myself. Women like me deserve to enjoy a peaceful existence within their own authenticity.
What I'm saying is that we deserve a world in which all forms of female self-expression (including the "impractical" fashion with makeup and heels) or a naturally soft and friendly demeanor can be welcome and not viewed as an invitation to rape and harassment.
Maybe it's idealistic of me to say that, but I feel it's the right thing to say.
You make an interesting point about males being naturally violent, and never changing their ways. It's something I will research and think about.
I think it's good that we have a culture and legal system that holds men accountable for rape and violence against women & children. Even if it's not a perfect system, everyone knows that it is wrong.
I think women's safety and self-protection is so much deeper than how we present ourselves, and maybe I will write about that in the future.
The male dictionary is never our friend. Older versions of definitions are racist, sexist, classist, etc. and many still are.
Yes, Butches are perceived as "male" in patriarchy, but also as perverts, which all Lesbians are also perceived as. Chapter Four in our book, Dyke-Loving-Dykes explains in detail what a Butch is, away from definitions by those who hate us: (I tried to put my quote in italics, but it won't stay....)
"In spite of Butches being closer to how all females would be without male rule, the common myth about Butches is that Butches are “male” or “masculine.” Refusing to follow male rules does not make someone “masculine,” but the opposite of masculine. Butches are the least male of women because we refuse to obey men. Just because men have declared that the more comfortable, better made, and less humiliating clothing is only for them, does not make it male.
Feminists have always known that it is an insult, not a compliment, to be called “male” or “masculine.” So why use it against the women who most say no to male rules?
In some cultures women aren’t allowed to drive. When a few brave women risk torture and imprisonment by driving, do we call them “male” or “masculine”?
Standing in a natural grounded way also does not make a woman male. Women are told from girlhood to be afraid to look centered and grounded or they will appear “masculine,” which is part of what wearing high heels is all about. If men like how they look, they should wear them! It’s horrifying to see how women are wearing heels, including women in films who are portrayed as being warriors, and how restricted women competing against men in singing TV contests are. The men can run around the stage and leap dramatically, while the women can barely walk or stand, and certainly must have their attention divided to not just fall over and by the pain in their feet, leaving them at an extreme disadvantage. (There are videos of famous women and models in high heels teetering and then falling.) Notice that film or television shows increasingly depict women with less clothes, tight clothes, and their bodies exposed. Even if the plot is about people trying to survive a terrible disaster, finding clothes wherever they can, the women still look distinctly and unnaturally “feminine.”"
This is not just my or our personal definition, but that of many Butches I know, around the world, plus Fems who care agree. It's hard when you are repeatedly told you are something that has more privilege than you but is also your enemy who has sexually harassed you and even raped you, when you know you are nothing like that enemy. None of calling Butches "masculine" is good for us in any way. We are in constant danger, including, as I said, by doctors. Also, I don't believe it was always like this and always will be, if patriarchy somehow ended.
It's very different in cultures where women wear few clothes and are not pornified for being naked. I really am against "fashion" and most of what is called "art. When men wore heels, makeup, etc. this was the most privileged aristocrats who didn't have to walk, run, work, or even dress themselves, with their myriad servants. When men do it in the media now, it's to posture, but they do not live like that because it's too constricting and dangerous. I'm horrified how the media shows rich, successful women with rich men where two are talking (there is a television series called "Actors on Actors" where they are usually paired as a woman with a man) and the women is half naked in shoes that must be crippling her feet, while the men are dignified and comfortable. The women are constantly distracted by trying to pull their dresses lower. It's a grotesque lesson in showing girls how they should be or how they must not be girls.
There is a difference between how het women want to look and how many Lesbians look, but also a difference between how Dyke Fems look and what I call "Hard Fems," which again we explain in our book. I never said that women should choose to look in any way to change men's behavior. Why would we? They are not in my world and I keep as much distance as possible. What I keep saying is that that Lesbians in the Seventies and later were changing to stop obeying male rules and to be comfortable and attract each other, but as porn and sado-masochism increased, Lesbians started following those rule again. For many, that meant going back to what they did with and for men.
In terms of safety, there is common sense. Women might want to lay in the street holding thousands of dollars in cash because they like how it makes them look, but it just is not safe.
Of course we deserve a world without threats and rape, but males will not stop, and most of the male lawyers, juries, and judges also rape or want to, so they are not protectiing girls and women for the most part. WE know it's wrong but they usually show that they don't. An example is trump and his supporters who brag about assaulting women.
Hi Bev, I see your point and you’ve shared some food for thought here.
Personally, I have a different understanding of the concepts of masculinity and femininity. I do think of them in spiritual / energetic terms, and I am equally aware of our societal definitions of these words, as they relate to one’s dress, demeanor, and overall behavior.
What is considered “masculine” or “feminine” may look different from culture to culture, but they still exist, nonetheless.
It’s objectively true that butch women have qualities that are commonly associated with males, but I understand why you may not want to define it that way.
While I respect where you’re coming from, I don’t believe that butch women are the emblem of what the “ultimate woman” would be if she were free from patriarchy.
I think either you are born a butch lesbian, or you are not. It is not a political statement, or an expression of liberation. Butch is not something that most women will ever have the capacity to become, even if they tried.
Butch, just like sexual orientation, is an innate quality, that you can’t control. I believe that butch homosexuality is part of natural human variation, and I believe it manifests at least in part, due to genetics.
Women who adopt butchness as an ideology or for social/political/feminist purposes are not really butch in my opinion.
I don’t believe that butch women can accurately be defined as women who do not follow male rules. Women who don’t follow rules come in all sorts of packages and look all manner of ways. Some women may not follow the rules in some ways, but they will follow in other ways. Plenty of butch women are very male-identified and not liberated within their own minds.
—
I really do believe in respecting femininity / feminine qualities, and I believe that an element of misogyny is to degrade femininity and put it down as being lesser-than.
Most women, regardless of sexuality or how we dress— are naturally feminine. Femininity is not a male construct: men have only tried to redefine and control what femininity means, for their benefit. So, putting down femininity is just a way of putting down the average woman in her most natural state.
I sensed that some of what you were sharing was really just putting down femmes and feminine expression, and I don’t appreciate that, especially as a more femme-leaning woman. Reading your comments makes me feel like you must inevitably judge the way I show up in the world, and how I dress, too.
I am used to receiving that sort of brash judgment from radical feminists, and that is only one reason it has always been hard to form community with them.
I think there is a major difference between het women and Lesbians, which is that het women's main allegiance is to males and patriarchy, whether it's "their" men or sons or grandsons, etc. No matter how "Radical Feminist" they say they are, I can see their Lesbian hating. It can be similar with the difference between ex-het Lesbians and Lifelong or Never-het Lesbians. Those who first chose men are in the vast majority and many came out not for love of other females, but because their men dumped them, etc. I've heard horror stories from friends who have brought their hatred of men into our communities and transferred it to Butches, but also to Fem Lesbians.
I know a very class-privileged famous Euro-descent Lesbian who has done some wonderful work and books in defense of girls and women, but she told me that after her husband left her, she never gave her heart fully to anyone again. So after 30 lover, and she seemed to choose mostly African-descent and other Butches of Color and poverty class Butches, she broke their hearts. These are Lesbians she greatly oppressed on so many levels, and she left them all. There aren't even that many Butches around, but she found them. The last I knew of was a het Jordanian Butch decades younger than her, who ran a little cafe with her family, and my friend wanted her, went after her, got her, and then got bored ("she's never even learned English," she said), and after ruining her life, she dumped her. The last time we visited in a restaurant, I saw that woman who was stalking her, clearly in torment.
So this is one of the reasons I don't trust Radical Feminist het women, but there are also Lesbian-hating "Political Lesbian Radical Feminists," like Sheila Jeffries and Julie Bindel who absolutely hate Butches. They also slander us in cruel and horrific ways.
I've seen so much erasure of Lesbian Feminism in the last 50 plus years and one part it the denial of the choices we make. I believe we are born to be Lesbians, but most girls choose to be het to fit in and be accepted. I also believe that we choose to be Butch or Fem at a very young age. My mother put relentless pressure on me to be ultra feminine and even pornified me when I was little, and I was forced to wear dresses to go to school, but I hated every bit of it and as soon as I realized I could refuse what my mother did, I stopped. I also was in love with girls from my earliest memories, and recognized most males as predatory and repulsive. More Butches I've known chose to never be het, though some did.
No, Butches are not the "ultimate woman," but I do think as a group are closer what we would be without patriarchy. Yes, many Butches imitate men, but many Fems do also, though in different ways. Butches say no to male-identified "femininity," which is severely punished in patriarchy. (It's no coincidence that the grounds for executing 19 year old Jeanne d'Arc/Joan of Arc was because she put on her clothes again, after being forced into a dress, since only men were allowed to wear warrior clothes.)
I really disagree that criticizing male-identified "femininity" is misogynist in any way. It's not criticizing true femaleness, but questioning the fake "femininity" we are told we all should be, which harms us in many ways. What would a good femininity that Butches don't have look like? I don't put down Fems, but I do question anything than women do that harms other women and girls, and some of that is presented as "feminine" when it isn't intrinsically feminine at all. I'm seeing some het Radical Feminists heavily promoting images of extreme "femininity," which not only makes any woman who doesn't go along with it be considered a "freak" or "abnormal" but also makes that be the public, visible form of what it means to be a woman, which then leads to confused girls thinking they must be male. These "Feminists" are so worshipful of these images that are considered beautiful (but which I find grotesque and ugly) that they do not want to give them up even if that would help girls and fight the trans cult. (I keep saying that if women stopped looking the ways that men who pretend to be women are fetishizing, they would have nothing left to imitate.)
Saying that being Butch might be a result of genetics, pathologizes us, as does saying our being Lesbian is also a result genetics. Both are based hetness and femininity as the norm, and superior, while those of us who said no to all that are considered not "normal." I agree that no one can turn themselves Butch, but many Dyke Fems do choose to look like Dykes (which is an important way to find each other) and so share the oppression of being Out, visible Lesbians, so it's not all on Butches. But I really am upset by so many posturing Fems saying they are Butch. Loren Cameron's book, Body Alchemy, about FtM women, showed not one Butch, though most Lesbians would think they all were. Alison Bechdel who is one of the most popular Lesbian cartoonists, supposedly portrays many different kinds of Lesbians in her books, but she seems incapable of showing a single Butch. (When I've said this, Lesbians will say her character, "Lois," is Butch, but I say being sado-masochist, non-monogamous, Butch-hating stereotype is not a Butch.) Eliminating Butches from an otherwise very diverse series says how hated we are and how desperate the majority Fems are to erase us.
So then we're left with how to describe and show who is Butch or not or what do Butches look like without photos or films to reference. I still can often tell from one photo, including Butches from other countries and cultures. I'd love to make a collection....
Thought provoking as always. I don't think it is possible, as humans are social animals, to ever find a truly personal style that isn't influenced by so many complicated issues, including who we want to appeal to; how we want to present ourselves; and to whom we want to gaze upon us favorably. Etc. It is a complicated and fascinating subject. And of course, throw into the mix that as a female, a lesbian, we either have already experienced male sexual violence and harassment in all its various ways, and/or desperately want to avoid it. Or avoid a male gaze of sexual objectification and attention in anyway. ETC.
What I can say as a woman having lived a long long time, is old age is the only answer I have found to finally not only not give too much of a damn, but to find, at last, the freedom from the male gaze in actuality and in mind. Though, sadly, I don't think we are ever totally free from caring what others think about us, our physical self, or our character. I think we would have to live a hermit's life, to achieve that freedom. Tempting, but lonely.
"What concerns me is the fact that this woman thought that her “looking like a boy” was her free pass from being the object of the male gaze and sexual harassment, and that she was desperately trying to figure out what more she can do to pass as a boy."
I can relate to this a lot. I came out two years ago at 28 and wanted to stay away from the male gaze at all times. I disguised wearing baggy clothes as "figuring out my style". I am Brazilian. My body has been sexualized for as long as I can remember. But with therapy and self-reflection I accepted that I can't change men's behavior. I did end up finally figuring out my style based on what I liked, not how much of my curves it covered.
This was beautifully written. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for reading & sharing your experience! I am glad you found your style based on what you like-that is so important 🌺
I so agree. Of course she doesn't "look like a boy"! I understand wanting their privilege and less harassment and threats, but they are our oppressors. Lesbians who look like Dykes look wonderful, as she does. What a waste to want to look male. And if she is attracted to other women (which I think is our natural inborn state), then she should not want to look male (or male-identified "feminine.")
Yes! -- "The real problem is male sexual entitlement and violence, which are byproducts of patriarchy.
If we had a culture where men actually respected women, and if we lived in a world where women did not have to fear our boundaries being crossed—I vouch that we would see far fewer women trying to opt-out of womanhood."
And like you said, none of trying to change how we look will make us safer from male harassment and attacks, and it's a shame for women to make men be the guidepost for how they want to look, whether to attract them (which is so dangerous) or to keep them away. What does help is to look firm and focused and strong, dressing in shoes we can easily and safely run in, clothes that protect us, and not looking open and friendly towards men (which can be hard for girls and women to unlearn.) There are so many ways we've been taught to "behave" and look welcoming to men. (Comparing expressions Butches and Fems have is very revealing about the smallest looks and gestures, or lack of.) When I was quite young and going out in public to bars, etc., I actually used to carry a knife in a scabbard on my belt, but there are safer ways to protect ourselves that don't get police involved. Meanwhile, for some of us, the looks and attitude that put off predatory men can be very attractive to other Lesbians.
You're right too that this is a slippery slope into the trans cult, which will not work, but will destroy her natural handsomeness and health, and also means joining with our worst enemies. It's never a good idea.
Hi Bev, thank you for sharing your thoughts. One thing you mentioned that stood out to me is the idea that women can behave or dress in a way that is not inviting to men, and that butch women are exemplary for this model of behavior, as opposed to the average feminine woman.
Personally, I think this is another way of privileging masculine expression over femininity, or judging it as smarter (even street-smarter) when it is not. Both female expressions (masculine and feminine) have their own unique strengths in terms of navigating society.
As far as women modifying their behavior so as to not appear inviting to men, this is not really possible because men often find a woman’s mere existence as an invitation. Women do not have to do anything to be considered inviting, when our bodies are deemed enough of an invitation.
The average man is horrible at reading women’s body language and social cues—and part of that is because they simply do not care about what women are thinking or feeling. They have been socialized out of that level of attunment. Even if you do not smile, they will take it as an invitation to tell you to do so.
I experience street harassment all the time. Men also talk to me all the time.
I enjoy dressing in what makes me feel good, and sometimes, that can be revealing and/or feminine clothing. I have a relaxed, confident demeanor.
But just because I don’t have a masculine or “tough” exterior, does not mean I’m “inviting” men into my space, or that I am not mindful of my safety.
The problem is not me—it’s other people’s perceptions and behaviors. So, it irks me to hear that women like myself are supposed to bend over backwards and to more masculine, change our wardrobe, or behave differently just to be a little safer.
Do you see how this is replicating the very same system I talked about in this essay?
In any case, I don’t believe butch is something women can become. Most women are naturally more feminine. We deserve a world that respects us as we are.
The solution to street harassment is for men to get their shit together and learn how to respect women, not for women to contort ourselves further.
Oh I agree that nothing completely protects us, and also women should never have to change how we are because of men. What I think protects us the most is having a car, seriously. Being less exposed on the street or public transportation helps, but not everyone can. (Where I live, it's almost impossible to go anywhere without a car, like a ten minute drive would take hours by bus and no way to carry groceries, etc..)
I really do not like or identify with saying "masculine" for Butches or women refusing male-identified femininity. Also I would never say we have more privilege considering the ways we are targeted and treated, whether by Lesbian-hating doctors or other Lesbians. I keep thinking that almost all the Butches I've known are dead now. Some murdered and a lot from cancer and other stress-related illnesses. Being Butch also does not mean being or looking tough.
I wasn't replicating what you were talking about since I never say that women should change how they are because of men in any way, but most women do, to appeal to men. I agree that women should not have to change how we look for safety, but some things are practical and women who choose "fashion" and being "attractive" endanger themselves in other ways, like the friend who broke her ankle with high heel shoes and can't walk without a cane now. (And now she's more vulnerable to attack.)
I don't believe or expect males to change for the better because I think male violence is in their nature, across most species. (A few animals cultures have almost eliminated males and are safer, but very few.)
I do agree that Butches are Butch from early childhood and other women can't become Butch. But we were a lot safer when more women (like in the early Seventies) tried to look more like Dykes (though the term "Butch" scared most of the Lesbian Feminists I knew). It also is important for girls to see obvious Lesbians and women refusing male images of us so they know that they don't have to try to be male if they want to look more natural.
Hi Bev, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Yes, I now remember you saying that you don't like the word "masculine" to describe butch women, because of the association with males.
While I totally understand that, I'm also wondering how you define butch if it's not about masculinity?
The the official definition of butch from the dictionary is "a lesbian whose appearance and behavior is seen as traditionally masculine".
Masculinity is defined as "having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men or boys".
While you may have your own personal definition-this is how we linguistically define butch, and it is how butch women are perceived in society, as well as within the lesbian community.
Personally, I don't think this definition is a bad thing. It is a fact that butch women carry qualities that are commonly associated with men or boys.
It is a social and cultural description, rather than a permanent attachment of butch women to males.
Masculinity does not exclusively belong to men, but it is a dominant trait in their group. Women who are *naturally* more masculine-leaning are in the minority, and always will be.
In this way, I do not believe masculinity and femininity are entirely socially fabricated.
If we can't meaningfully describe butch or masculinity in a way that is honest, then we have lost valuable language to claim our experiences.
--
As far as the replicating the same problem I shared in this essay: I pointed out that you listed a number of ways that women can modify their dress and behavior so as to not invite men, and how you suggested that butch women are exemplary models for this, whereas femmes are not:
"What does help is to look firm and focused and strong, dressing in shoes we can easily and safely run in, clothes that protect us, and not looking open and friendly towards men....There are so many ways we've been taught to "behave" and look welcoming to men. (Comparing expressions Butches and Fems have is very revealing about the smallest looks and gestures, or lack of."
So yes, I do think this contradicts your point about women not changing their behavior or dress in an effort to control men's behavior. It's not so much about butch women being privileged in society, but moreso that this statement "privileges (pedestalizes) butch expression as somehow better or street-smarter than that of femmes.
...This is especially because femmes tend to carry a more delicate demeanor, and are more likely to wear dresses and skirts (not sure if this is what you meant by clothing that does not protect us), and shoes with chunky platforms or heels.
Fashion is not always about practicality-it is about Art and Culture. Men have also worn heels and "skirts" throughout history. In many cultures, especially in Africa, women walked around naked or half-naked all the time. So, context really matters here.
On that note, not every woman expresses herself to gain the interest of men, even if it may be perceived that way.
Some women are just naturally very attractive to men, and people will assume that she is dressing or behaving that way for men, when she is not. I have often been accused of this, myself. Women like me deserve to enjoy a peaceful existence within their own authenticity.
What I'm saying is that we deserve a world in which all forms of female self-expression (including the "impractical" fashion with makeup and heels) or a naturally soft and friendly demeanor can be welcome and not viewed as an invitation to rape and harassment.
Maybe it's idealistic of me to say that, but I feel it's the right thing to say.
You make an interesting point about males being naturally violent, and never changing their ways. It's something I will research and think about.
I think it's good that we have a culture and legal system that holds men accountable for rape and violence against women & children. Even if it's not a perfect system, everyone knows that it is wrong.
I think women's safety and self-protection is so much deeper than how we present ourselves, and maybe I will write about that in the future.
The male dictionary is never our friend. Older versions of definitions are racist, sexist, classist, etc. and many still are.
Yes, Butches are perceived as "male" in patriarchy, but also as perverts, which all Lesbians are also perceived as. Chapter Four in our book, Dyke-Loving-Dykes explains in detail what a Butch is, away from definitions by those who hate us: (I tried to put my quote in italics, but it won't stay....)
"In spite of Butches being closer to how all females would be without male rule, the common myth about Butches is that Butches are “male” or “masculine.” Refusing to follow male rules does not make someone “masculine,” but the opposite of masculine. Butches are the least male of women because we refuse to obey men. Just because men have declared that the more comfortable, better made, and less humiliating clothing is only for them, does not make it male.
Feminists have always known that it is an insult, not a compliment, to be called “male” or “masculine.” So why use it against the women who most say no to male rules?
In some cultures women aren’t allowed to drive. When a few brave women risk torture and imprisonment by driving, do we call them “male” or “masculine”?
Standing in a natural grounded way also does not make a woman male. Women are told from girlhood to be afraid to look centered and grounded or they will appear “masculine,” which is part of what wearing high heels is all about. If men like how they look, they should wear them! It’s horrifying to see how women are wearing heels, including women in films who are portrayed as being warriors, and how restricted women competing against men in singing TV contests are. The men can run around the stage and leap dramatically, while the women can barely walk or stand, and certainly must have their attention divided to not just fall over and by the pain in their feet, leaving them at an extreme disadvantage. (There are videos of famous women and models in high heels teetering and then falling.) Notice that film or television shows increasingly depict women with less clothes, tight clothes, and their bodies exposed. Even if the plot is about people trying to survive a terrible disaster, finding clothes wherever they can, the women still look distinctly and unnaturally “feminine.”"
We explain more in our chapter: https://bevjoradicallesbian.wordpress.com/2017/09/06/chapter-four-2015-update-25-years-later-supporting-butches-supports-all-lesbians/
This is not just my or our personal definition, but that of many Butches I know, around the world, plus Fems who care agree. It's hard when you are repeatedly told you are something that has more privilege than you but is also your enemy who has sexually harassed you and even raped you, when you know you are nothing like that enemy. None of calling Butches "masculine" is good for us in any way. We are in constant danger, including, as I said, by doctors. Also, I don't believe it was always like this and always will be, if patriarchy somehow ended.
It's very different in cultures where women wear few clothes and are not pornified for being naked. I really am against "fashion" and most of what is called "art. When men wore heels, makeup, etc. this was the most privileged aristocrats who didn't have to walk, run, work, or even dress themselves, with their myriad servants. When men do it in the media now, it's to posture, but they do not live like that because it's too constricting and dangerous. I'm horrified how the media shows rich, successful women with rich men where two are talking (there is a television series called "Actors on Actors" where they are usually paired as a woman with a man) and the women is half naked in shoes that must be crippling her feet, while the men are dignified and comfortable. The women are constantly distracted by trying to pull their dresses lower. It's a grotesque lesson in showing girls how they should be or how they must not be girls.
There is a difference between how het women want to look and how many Lesbians look, but also a difference between how Dyke Fems look and what I call "Hard Fems," which again we explain in our book. I never said that women should choose to look in any way to change men's behavior. Why would we? They are not in my world and I keep as much distance as possible. What I keep saying is that that Lesbians in the Seventies and later were changing to stop obeying male rules and to be comfortable and attract each other, but as porn and sado-masochism increased, Lesbians started following those rule again. For many, that meant going back to what they did with and for men.
In terms of safety, there is common sense. Women might want to lay in the street holding thousands of dollars in cash because they like how it makes them look, but it just is not safe.
Of course we deserve a world without threats and rape, but males will not stop, and most of the male lawyers, juries, and judges also rape or want to, so they are not protectiing girls and women for the most part. WE know it's wrong but they usually show that they don't. An example is trump and his supporters who brag about assaulting women.
Our chapter on male violence: https://bevjoradicallesbian.wordpress.com/2017/09/09/chapteronethe-crimes-of-mankind/
Hi Bev, I see your point and you’ve shared some food for thought here.
Personally, I have a different understanding of the concepts of masculinity and femininity. I do think of them in spiritual / energetic terms, and I am equally aware of our societal definitions of these words, as they relate to one’s dress, demeanor, and overall behavior.
What is considered “masculine” or “feminine” may look different from culture to culture, but they still exist, nonetheless.
It’s objectively true that butch women have qualities that are commonly associated with males, but I understand why you may not want to define it that way.
While I respect where you’re coming from, I don’t believe that butch women are the emblem of what the “ultimate woman” would be if she were free from patriarchy.
I think either you are born a butch lesbian, or you are not. It is not a political statement, or an expression of liberation. Butch is not something that most women will ever have the capacity to become, even if they tried.
Butch, just like sexual orientation, is an innate quality, that you can’t control. I believe that butch homosexuality is part of natural human variation, and I believe it manifests at least in part, due to genetics.
Women who adopt butchness as an ideology or for social/political/feminist purposes are not really butch in my opinion.
I don’t believe that butch women can accurately be defined as women who do not follow male rules. Women who don’t follow rules come in all sorts of packages and look all manner of ways. Some women may not follow the rules in some ways, but they will follow in other ways. Plenty of butch women are very male-identified and not liberated within their own minds.
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I really do believe in respecting femininity / feminine qualities, and I believe that an element of misogyny is to degrade femininity and put it down as being lesser-than.
Most women, regardless of sexuality or how we dress— are naturally feminine. Femininity is not a male construct: men have only tried to redefine and control what femininity means, for their benefit. So, putting down femininity is just a way of putting down the average woman in her most natural state.
I sensed that some of what you were sharing was really just putting down femmes and feminine expression, and I don’t appreciate that, especially as a more femme-leaning woman. Reading your comments makes me feel like you must inevitably judge the way I show up in the world, and how I dress, too.
I am used to receiving that sort of brash judgment from radical feminists, and that is only one reason it has always been hard to form community with them.
I think there is a major difference between het women and Lesbians, which is that het women's main allegiance is to males and patriarchy, whether it's "their" men or sons or grandsons, etc. No matter how "Radical Feminist" they say they are, I can see their Lesbian hating. It can be similar with the difference between ex-het Lesbians and Lifelong or Never-het Lesbians. Those who first chose men are in the vast majority and many came out not for love of other females, but because their men dumped them, etc. I've heard horror stories from friends who have brought their hatred of men into our communities and transferred it to Butches, but also to Fem Lesbians.
I know a very class-privileged famous Euro-descent Lesbian who has done some wonderful work and books in defense of girls and women, but she told me that after her husband left her, she never gave her heart fully to anyone again. So after 30 lover, and she seemed to choose mostly African-descent and other Butches of Color and poverty class Butches, she broke their hearts. These are Lesbians she greatly oppressed on so many levels, and she left them all. There aren't even that many Butches around, but she found them. The last I knew of was a het Jordanian Butch decades younger than her, who ran a little cafe with her family, and my friend wanted her, went after her, got her, and then got bored ("she's never even learned English," she said), and after ruining her life, she dumped her. The last time we visited in a restaurant, I saw that woman who was stalking her, clearly in torment.
So this is one of the reasons I don't trust Radical Feminist het women, but there are also Lesbian-hating "Political Lesbian Radical Feminists," like Sheila Jeffries and Julie Bindel who absolutely hate Butches. They also slander us in cruel and horrific ways.
I've seen so much erasure of Lesbian Feminism in the last 50 plus years and one part it the denial of the choices we make. I believe we are born to be Lesbians, but most girls choose to be het to fit in and be accepted. I also believe that we choose to be Butch or Fem at a very young age. My mother put relentless pressure on me to be ultra feminine and even pornified me when I was little, and I was forced to wear dresses to go to school, but I hated every bit of it and as soon as I realized I could refuse what my mother did, I stopped. I also was in love with girls from my earliest memories, and recognized most males as predatory and repulsive. More Butches I've known chose to never be het, though some did.
No, Butches are not the "ultimate woman," but I do think as a group are closer what we would be without patriarchy. Yes, many Butches imitate men, but many Fems do also, though in different ways. Butches say no to male-identified "femininity," which is severely punished in patriarchy. (It's no coincidence that the grounds for executing 19 year old Jeanne d'Arc/Joan of Arc was because she put on her clothes again, after being forced into a dress, since only men were allowed to wear warrior clothes.)
I really disagree that criticizing male-identified "femininity" is misogynist in any way. It's not criticizing true femaleness, but questioning the fake "femininity" we are told we all should be, which harms us in many ways. What would a good femininity that Butches don't have look like? I don't put down Fems, but I do question anything than women do that harms other women and girls, and some of that is presented as "feminine" when it isn't intrinsically feminine at all. I'm seeing some het Radical Feminists heavily promoting images of extreme "femininity," which not only makes any woman who doesn't go along with it be considered a "freak" or "abnormal" but also makes that be the public, visible form of what it means to be a woman, which then leads to confused girls thinking they must be male. These "Feminists" are so worshipful of these images that are considered beautiful (but which I find grotesque and ugly) that they do not want to give them up even if that would help girls and fight the trans cult. (I keep saying that if women stopped looking the ways that men who pretend to be women are fetishizing, they would have nothing left to imitate.)
Saying that being Butch might be a result of genetics, pathologizes us, as does saying our being Lesbian is also a result genetics. Both are based hetness and femininity as the norm, and superior, while those of us who said no to all that are considered not "normal." I agree that no one can turn themselves Butch, but many Dyke Fems do choose to look like Dykes (which is an important way to find each other) and so share the oppression of being Out, visible Lesbians, so it's not all on Butches. But I really am upset by so many posturing Fems saying they are Butch. Loren Cameron's book, Body Alchemy, about FtM women, showed not one Butch, though most Lesbians would think they all were. Alison Bechdel who is one of the most popular Lesbian cartoonists, supposedly portrays many different kinds of Lesbians in her books, but she seems incapable of showing a single Butch. (When I've said this, Lesbians will say her character, "Lois," is Butch, but I say being sado-masochist, non-monogamous, Butch-hating stereotype is not a Butch.) Eliminating Butches from an otherwise very diverse series says how hated we are and how desperate the majority Fems are to erase us.
So then we're left with how to describe and show who is Butch or not or what do Butches look like without photos or films to reference. I still can often tell from one photo, including Butches from other countries and cultures. I'd love to make a collection....
Thought provoking as always. I don't think it is possible, as humans are social animals, to ever find a truly personal style that isn't influenced by so many complicated issues, including who we want to appeal to; how we want to present ourselves; and to whom we want to gaze upon us favorably. Etc. It is a complicated and fascinating subject. And of course, throw into the mix that as a female, a lesbian, we either have already experienced male sexual violence and harassment in all its various ways, and/or desperately want to avoid it. Or avoid a male gaze of sexual objectification and attention in anyway. ETC.
What I can say as a woman having lived a long long time, is old age is the only answer I have found to finally not only not give too much of a damn, but to find, at last, the freedom from the male gaze in actuality and in mind. Though, sadly, I don't think we are ever totally free from caring what others think about us, our physical self, or our character. I think we would have to live a hermit's life, to achieve that freedom. Tempting, but lonely.